This second installment of Lost certainly didn’t have as many answers as the first episode, but boy oh boy it heaped on a whole lot of new questions, didn’t it? I’ve never been one to complain about the mysteries on the show, truth be told it’s why I love it, but this episode was downright confusing. The Others continue to be maddeningly cryptic and secretive, and to what end? I’ll be really curious to see if the justification for all the secrecy makes sense when all is said and done.
I’ll get to all of those juicy questions in a moment, but this episode was really all about Kate. After all that she has been through, she really hasn’t changed that much, has she? I suppose that is going to be a big theme of this final season, as we revisit the lives of the characters after landing safely in LA. Tonight we got to see Kate the fugitive, running away from trouble, both on the island and off it.
I thought it was great seeing all the connections between Kate and Claire in the alternate timeline. Will Kate end up with Aaron in the alternate timeline as well? Is she the “other” that the maybe-psychic was referring to when he told Claire not to let her son be raised by another? And how creepy was it to see Ethan in the hospital, tending to a pregnant Claire? Also, I have to think that we saw the original timeline creeping into the alternate again in this episode as Claire spontaneously referred to her unborn child as Aaron. Considering how much trouble she had naming him the first time around, I think this was more than just a coincidence.
Now on to the good stuff. At this point it would appear that all that speculation about Jacob hopping into Sayid was just that: speculation. Instead, if the Others are to be believed, there is a darkness inside him that is going to corrupt him, and I would have to think that it would need to be a mighty dark darkness to corrupt the soul of a torturer. Is this the influence of smokey? It would explain why it happened to Claire as well, who we saw hanging out with Christian, presumably an agent of smokey, in season four after she disappeared. With Claire appearing to have become a crazy jungle lady, I have to wonder if Rousseau also had the same thing happen to her? Perhaps she was the one who got the “sickness” that she was always rambling about. In any case, Lost has my attention, and I’m intrigued beyond words.
One thing that I have been thinking about more and more is Smokey’s confession that he wants to go “home.” Is this whole island, and perhaps the whole story of Lost, a prison for some evil entity? Is everyone there just to make sure that the monster is locked on the island away from civilization? Curiouser and curiouser.
Clacked by Bob Degon
on Feb 09, 2010 @ 22:30 EST5EDT
The island is definitely some sort of prison for Smokey. The question is who or what banished him. Is/Was Jacob a sentry to keep him on the island? Is everything Jacob has done all to ensure Smokey does not succeed with his escape?
Wild guessing time.
– Christian, Claire, Locke and Sayid are all Smokey, or part of them is. Smokey infected them. Christian was dead when he came to the island, Smokey revived him. Locke died in the ditch after Ben shot him, Smokey revived/infected him as well. Claire: no idea. Sorry I can’t remember what happened to her, everything must’ve either happened off-screen or I simply can’t remember the scenes goog enough to write down exactly what happened to her.
Think about it: how else could Smokey have known what Locke thought when Ben killed him if not part of him already possessed Locke?
– the “Alternate” timeline is reality. Everything happening on the island will be eradicated until the end of the show. Important parts of what will not have happened at the end will blend into reality. The timelines will become one once another altruistic thing (most likely somebody giving their live(s) to kill Smokey and set Jacob free) happens
I could go into detail but as homework watch “Donny Darko”. If you already understand that movie then we can talk about all this. It’s pretty much all in that movie and “Flashes before your Eyes” was a humongous hint at where the show was going for. The reason I was so angry back then was because Desmond never really tried to alter reality. Faraday (or better all the 815ers around Jack) did in the end, and that makes it all come together very neatly. Also explains why Cuse/Lindelof wanted to know exactly how much time they have to fill until they get all loose ends together and tie it all up neatly – like on Donnie Darko.
Yeah I know I sound like a dick again but again I think it’s all so obvious to me how this all fits together. I might be wrong in a colossal way but honestly I don’t think so.
Claire’s house in Otherville was blown up by the freighter people. There was a lot of speculation that she was actually dead after that point, but it was never addressed or confirmed, so that would go a long way in this theory.
Don’t worry about sounding like a dick, theorizing is all part of the fun – as long as you admit that they’re just theories! ;0)
Think about it: how else could Smokey have known what Locke thought when Ben killed him if not part of him already possessed Locke?
Well, he seemed to know Yemi pretty well when he took his visage (well enough to fool his brother), so I don’t think this is conclusive evidence. I like to think that Locke was his own man until actually dying when Ben strangled him.
“Christian, Claire, Locke and Sayid are all Smokey, or part of them is.”
Agreed.
Can someone remind me why there are two John Lockes, the dead body plus the possessed one? Actually, there are three John Lockes if you count the one living in the “alternate” timeline. I’m a little confused by this.
I don’t have a great answer for this. At times it has seen like smokey takes over bodies (see Christian’s missing corpse), but sometimes he appears to just LOOK like dead people (when he appeared as Yemi to taunt Ecko… he wasn’t using Yemi’s body which was pretty decayed at that point).
Anyone have a better answer?
I don’t see the problem.
Christian died a couple of days before he was transported back to the US (or at least Jack tried to). So Smokey possessed him, re-animating him just like he did with Claire and Sayid and Sayid.
When Locke was strangled by Ben, Smokey was able to re-create him once the corpse got to the island, just like he did with Yemi’s corpse.
Only if the person dies of his own free will (e.g. taking the poison pill) Smokey won’t be able to take over the body. I thought that was made pretty clear yesterday :-)
On the other hand maybe Christian’s corpse dropped into the ocean and was possessed by the Dharma shark – close enough. It was within Smokey’s reach (the corpse, not the shark) and therefor Christian could be re-created.
I don’t really see the neccessity to find Christian’s corpse or it not having been found contradicting any of these theories.
There are only Two John Lockes. One in one timeline, one in the other. The third one is Smokey _appearing_ as Locke. When he killed those guys who came in aid of Jacob, he was the Smoke Monster – and that Locke was gone as long as the smoke was there. So there’s no three, only two.
The idea of infinite Universes by the way postulates an infinite amount of Lockes. But not to confuse you too much let’s just assume there are only two Universes right now – one with a dead Locke in the coffin at the beach and the other in a wheelchair in LA.
I agree with your point that there are only two Lockes, because the third one is Smokey (and I understand the infinite Lockes point as well).
Assuming Smokey has now possessed Sayid’s dead body – isn’t this inconsistent? In Locke’s case, Smokey didn’t possess Locke’s body but simply took Locke’s appearance. Locke’s dead body is still there.
Why has Smokey reanimated Sayid’s dead body instead of simply taking on Sayid’s appearance?
Hurley asked Sayid whether he saw a white light or something. Sayid answered “All I remember is I got shot”.
I guess Sayid’s “soul” or whatever hadn’t left the body yet. Maybe Smokey gains power or abilities if he corrupts a soul instead of just taking over a corpse. Or maybe the soul needs to be corrupted for him to be able to take on the form of that person. Maybe Christian was already corrupted, whereas Locke, Sayid and Claire needed corruption first to be taken over. Same as with Yemi, who was already absolutely corrupted when he came to the island, and maybe also the reason for Smokey to kill Eko, who did not want to be corrupted and therefor Smokey didn’t see any more use for him.
I hope this is still interesting for you ^^;
Go watch Donnie Darko, I want to talk about that too :-)
Here’s what I don’t get: If we are to assume that every dead person or vision that we’ve seen on the island (besides Jacob himself) is now the Man in Black / Smokey / The Big Bad(?), what on earth was his motivation for the many times we saw him through seasons 1-4? To what end did he keep showing up? Can we make a good list of the “visions”? Here’s the major ones I remember:
-He appeared to both John Locke and Eko as Yemi. His opinion of Eko in this time seemed to have greatly shifted, since he killed Eko when Eko refused to atone for his sins.
-He appeared briefly to Jack, and then several times to other people, as Christian Shephard. This was usually to provide some kind of guidance (i.e., move the plot forward).
-He appeared to Hurley as his imaginary friend Dave, and apparently tried to get him to off himself.
-He appeared as Smokey several times, usually murderously, except once with John Locke (though he did try to drag him away another time IIRC) and once with Eko. What’s the deal?
I mean, I can see Smokey (as I’ll refer to him) doing all this simply for the sake of testing people (and punishing them when they fail), but there seems to be more to it than that. He did a lot more than was necessary just to kill Jacob, which is the only motivation of his we’ve seen. I hope the writers have planned all this out.
Also, the idea that the island is a prison for Smokey comes into question a bit when you consider that he appeared off-island several times, including as Charlie to Hurley (and some other instances I can’t remember at the moment). I also don’t buy that Locke died when Ben shot him, though it was definitely Smokey’s intervention (as Boone, I believe) that gave him the strength to get out of that hole. If Smokey could just appear as John and do exactly what he wanted after that directly (instead of through him as an intermediary), why bother saving his life at all? I have to believe the writers didn’t quite know where they were going with it at that point, which I don’t really mind, but I hope they’ve come up with a satisfying explanation.
The other weird thing was that both Smokey and Jacob wanted the Oceanic Six to get back to the island (if we assume that the off-island visions, like the other visions, were all him). It’s pretty clear why Smokey wanted Locke there, and Jacob didn’t seem to see that coming, but why would he influence the others to return there as well? So it would be possible for Locke to get there (I seem to recall Eloise Hawking saying something about duplicating the original conditions)? And if so, why did Jacob want them there? Actually, the only who Jacob definitely seemed to want there was Hurley, since he’s the only one of the original castaways that he appeared to directly after the return home. The motivations for our “deities” are very fuzzy at this point.
About both Jacob and Smokey wanting the Oceanic Six back:
Smokey and Jacob can’t hurt each other. They are battling in a proxy war, vying for the attention/worship/following of people who are especially drawn to the island – just like the japanese guy said yesterday. He was drawn to the island.
All those flashbacks showed us that all of these people are connected and that they were manipulated/their fate was altered to get on board of the same flight at the same time so it could crash on the island. They are special – all of them. And every single player counts.
I guess you think of it as a “we need six keys to open this lock” kind of a problem – I think of it rather in terms of “I have a team of six judges on the (supreme) court, I need as many as I can get to win my case”. Or think of it as “Survivor – Final Tribal Council”. You can win with 5 votes, but that wouldn’t stop you from getting every single person on the council on your side. Every single one counts.
Dude… Jacob appeared as Charlie. Charlie gave his life, you know, altruism. He’s on Jacob’s side.
Jacob can incorporate people too. He asked Hurley to get Sayid’s body there to possess him – but the water wasn’t clear. Smokey was there first and won the battle for the body.
And about all those appearances: who says that a being that has been trapped on the island for several centuries only has to do stuff that’s absolutely necessary? Maybe he did some of those things just for fun.
We haven’t seen any solid evidence that Jacob has appeared as anybody except himself. Not so with Smokey, who we at least know for sure has appeared as Locke. Arguing “of course Charlie’s on Jacob’s side” doesn’t hold weight at this point because we don’t know enough about Jacob or Smokey, except that one wears white and is optimistic, and one wears black and wants to kill the other one.
We certainly haven’t seen anything to indicate that Jacob intended to possess/incorporate Sayid. He didn’t do so with Young Ben, who presumably received the same treatment at the temple. We just don’t know enough yet to make these claims conclusively.
Solid evidence?
I’m sorry but I thought it was clear that we are speculating. On top of that what is really “solid” on Lost?
But thanks for the hint – you mentioned that Ben got healed. Which would mean he would also be possessed by Smokey. Unless he isn’t, and he really DID have a choice not to kill Jacob. I mean if Richard Alpert really is on the good team and he saved Ben, then it could very well be that Jacob saved Ben and possessed him with his values.
But I understand what you are getting at. Maybe Jacob is passive in all of this and only healing people instead of taking over their bodies. Maybe he just wanted Sayid to get rescued and the water had the power to do that, to save him like it saved Ben in the past. Maybe it really is “only” the fountain of youth that gets corrupted by Smokey but not by Jacob, who could be a mere guardian.
But since Jacob appears to Hurley and Jacob is able to leave the island without possessing people, I really think he was the one who appeared as Charlie and not Smokey. Or Hugo simply has the ability to see dead people just like Miles has the ability to hear them. That would be the best explanation for it. Hurley having the 6th Sense.
Sebastian, we’re definitely speculating but I want to base it on what we already know for sure. I think there are some things we are solid on at this point (as much as we can be), e.g. Fake Locke = Smokey = Yemi (at least the last time we saw him, when he killed Eko), and that Jacob appeared off the island to Hurley as himself (to get him on the Ajira flight and give him the ankh).
I think that certain conclusions you’ve made in your mind are without good enough evidence, specifically the idea that Jacob can appear (and has) to others as someone besides himself. Smokey is the only one we’ve seen do this (at least 3 times), and we only found out it was really and truly “him” (the Man In Black) this season.
The other conclusion you’ve jumped to that I don’t necessarily support (yet) is the idea that Jacob is good and Smokey is evil. I feel like this might be an over-simplification of the mythology the writers are trying to weave here. At the very least, Smokey’s motives are marginally ambiguous (as I mentioned above), and while we haven’t seen Jacob do anything overtly evil like killing anyone, it was implied when we first saw him that it’s because of him that the Oceanic Six (and probably plenty of others) came to the island in the first place because of him. Stepping into somebody’s life and basically taking it away against their will is hardly a benevolent act, even if he sees it that way. The fact that he was all hugs and smiles about it doesn’t quite sell me on the fact that he’s clearly the good guy here. As for Richard Alpert, his interaction with Smokey makes me believe that he used to work for him, and then switched sides. Thoughts on that?
Just because Ben got healed back in the ’70s, that doesn’t mean he would’ve been possessed by anybody (nor do I think his actions support the idea that he was acting on anyone else’s judgment but his own, at least after the personality change Richard alluded to when he was healed turned him into what we know and loathe). The fountain was clear back then (judging by Dogen’s surprise when it wasn’t in the current day), so it might not’ve had exactly the same effect on Ben as it did Sayid. Is this the effect of Smokey taking over the fountain? Dogen thinks so, but we don’t really know yet. How would Smokey do so if the temple was protected? Just how many places can he be in at once? (My impression is that it’s only one, and in one form.)
I really do like your idea about Hurley having the ability to actually see dead people. It doesn’t quite explain Dave, but it would explain why he’s the only one who could see Charlie and Jacob after their deaths (and would allow for the vision of Charlie not being Smokey or Jacob, but then why would Charlie care if Hurley went back to the island? seemed more of a Smokey thing to me). It serves as a nice parallel to Miles’ established supernatural gift.
I still don’t think of Jacob as a mere guardian but rather one of two deities of the island (along with Smokey), the yin and yang if you will. I don’t quite see it as the balance of good and evil (yet), but they are clearly diametrically opposed with the white vs. black scheme. If you’re at all familiar with Killer 7 (taking a chance here because I really enjoy your Donnie Darko theory), think of Kun Lan vs. Hasidic Harman. They represent not so much good vs. evil, but the East’s ideologies vs. the West’s. I think something like that is going on here (though not that exactly).
Okay, I’ve said quite a bit. Hope you can respond to each point. This stuff is fun to talk about, and I love that there’s a show deep enough to provoke such talk.
Noone catched the reference the others made to Kate about the french woman being dead for a few years? Should that suggest that at any given moment Renee was possesed by Smokey?
Or maybe they just said a couple of years instead.